[REL] Mariken (2000)

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pillowbaker
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by pillowbaker »   2 likes

Night457 wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:10 pm
UPDATE, LATER --

Well, you've made my day with that one, Night! Thank you. :mrgreen:

Mariken's understanding of the world and her upbringing seem to reflect a certain tone in the series and moreso in the book, where the intelligence of large groups of people and their status-quo is seen as suspect and portrayed unflatteringly. Which is funny, too, as no one was more of a quack than Archibald himself in the beginning, aloofly selling dung and garbage as medicines, just as dubious as his own view of the magister. He, at least, recognizes reading and writing as not inherently evil practices for the common people. I admit, he might have been aware of what he was doing, though. I love it!

Next set of subs is underway. Since I have much of the lore terminology and place names set, the net episode shouldn't take quite as long. I am naming my transcriptions more clearly and staying more organized this time around.

I will gladly share the work I've done with the book so far. I've got the first 5 or 6 chapters finished. Of course, ChaptGPT and deepL are doing the majority of the work, but occasionally I had to dig a little further, and I did try to revise in a way that resembled English language children's novels, which takes some time. I highly encourage you or anyone interested to read it. It might very well be more enjoyable than the series. I got kinda wrapped up in reading it up to the point of where episode 1 ends. It is incredibly simple to read, you'll breeze right through it.

For epubs, I just use the program caliber. Open source, free, and integrates with any ereader you come across. Caliber can also convert them to text files or other document types. But I'll make you a nice text file soon.

Thank you for the suggestion for the De zaak Alzheimer. I watched a few clips and caught a few spoilers, but I don't mind this time. This looks like a great movie. (Memento style memory twist sounds even more interesting. That's a movie I got to watch once it came out on DVD.)


For anyone who's interested, but cannot emule, I uploaded popdrome's encodes to mega, listed 1 through 4:

Code: Select all

https://mega.nz/file/ndJn0Zha#BRImqw8BfiQ07uHqo6Nv4ys6JrndwteXox1WoysUDYU
https://mega.nz/file/mFoiVbQT#mZeqoGuBL1X1itMbvh2-tF4GjZB0PbhwdjiFtAL1nAc
https://mega.nz/file/zBBFkJAT#lbWL72I-9kF8pJiHARtpPI7P0t1O4WSGDLCO4wSLuvk
https://mega.nz/file/LAIh0JAZ#3VkZgBRQqqXI1rIUlYlArRrD5J8AAQrdGdv2OXJHA04
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by Night457 »   1 likes

pillowbaker wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:52 amI admit, he might have been aware of what he was doing, though. I love it!
He considers himself a misanthrope, thinks people are stupid, and wants to prove to himself that they will happily eat shit if you sell it to them right. I can't argue with him. Yet he is very gentle with Mariken, maybe because he wishes the "damned human race" (as Mark Twain put it) was better.
I will gladly share the work I've done with the book so far.
If you are finished translating the book by the time you are finished translating the subtitles, or thereabouts, I can wait for that. Once I start actually reading a book I don't want anything to stop me!
I did try to revise in a way that resembled English language children's novels, which takes some time.
The great children's writers make it look effortless, but it takes real work!
It might very well be more enjoyable than the series.
Nah, I used to believe that but my laziness now makes me think movies are better. I will certainly be picturing Laurien as I read!
For epubs, I just use the program caliber.
I think that is one I saw recommended, so eventually I'll check it out from your recommendation. Just for a start to take a quick look, I instead did a simple ePub-to-PDF online conversion, which at least makes a translatable document. I don't care to scroll through PDFs for reading purposes, however. I will never buy an actual ereader, so any software and format that works with my computer is good enough. I also downloaded a Dutch copy of "Der Zaak Alzheimer", but I suspect that at ~400 pages I am unlikely to translate and actually read it. I would just decide it is easier to watch the movie for the umpteenth time.

I reshared popdrome's files on eMule after you posted your subtitle. Fantastic that you also uploaded them to MEGA!
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by pillowbaker »   4 likes

Subtitles for episode 2 of Mariken are finally done!

A lot happens this episode. Lots of fun, this was.


Mariken (2000).S01E02.[HEVC.aliptes].en.srt


Hope you enjoy the continuation of Mariken's adventures!


[Image] :twisted:

[Image]

[Image]


I'll make a write up tomorrow. More research? Masscheroen? Could this Mariken book and series be influenced or reference the book/movie "Mariken van Nieumeghen"? What do Russian VOs look like when transcribed and translated? What are jaarmarkten? Medieval coinage: doits, ducats, florins, farthings? Some fun comparisons passages from the book and their corresponding scenes in the series.
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by kast1j »   0 likes

pillowbaker wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 8:24 am Subtitles for episode 2 of Mariken are finally done!
Spoiler:

A lot happens this episode. Lots of fun, this was.



Mariken (2000).S01E02.[HEVC.aliptes].en.srt



Hope you enjoy the continuation of Mariken's adventures!


[Image] :twisted:

[Image]

[Image]


I'll make a write up tomorrow. More research? Masscheroen? Could this Mariken book and series be influenced or reference the book/movie "Mariken van Nieumeghen"? What do Russian VOs look like when transcribed and translated? What are jaarmarkten? Medieval coinage: doits, ducats, florins, farthings? Some fun comparisons passages from the book and their corresponding scenes in the series.
Thank you for your good work.
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by Night457 »   0 likes

I held off commenting because I am looking forward to the writeup of your further adventures in research! I can only say that "Mariken" is the equivalent of "Mary" so it must be a common name. I am curious if there is in fact a connection to "Mariken van Nieumeghen" because I do not see it immediately from what I read about that.

I watched episode 2 on Saturday and enjoyed it very much. Thanks again!
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by pillowbaker »   0 likes

Night457 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 2:28 pm I held off commenting because I am looking forward to the writeup of your further adventures in research! I can only say that "Mariken" is the equivalent of "Mary" so it must be a common name. I am curious if there is in fact a connection to "Mariken van Nieumeghen" because I do not see it immediately from what I read about that.

I watched episode 2 on Saturday and enjoyed it very much. Thanks again!

Thanks, Night! :mrgreen: Episode 3 has been flowing seamlessly and should be ready soon.

Honestly, I held off a little on the writeup since I wasn't sure if there was interest. But I found the research curious, so here goes. I'll try to make it entertaining.


Research on some terms and how they led to connections Mariken Van Nieumeghen:
Spoiler:

As I was working on the subtitles, I came across several terms that jumped out at me as something that could assist with a better translation if I learned more about them. Some of these terms were
- satansteef
- satorkop
- jaarmarkt
- Masscheroen
- scharminkel
- bleekneus
- Waanwoud
- beentjes
- die hei
- doits, ducats, florins
and so on

Masscheroen was one of the first terms I researched where I came to suspect that the story of Mariken was referencing the older "Mariken van Neiumeghen". However, I may be completely wrong. Mariken can Neiumeghen is a morality "miracle play" first recorded in the 16th century. Since our Mariken takes place in a medieval setting (although likely a couple hundred years prior to the 16th century), it could simply be referencing a medieval text from a closer era. However, a brief look into the van Neuimeghen play on wikipedia provides the following:

"The story has been adapted for film twice, in 1974 by Jos Stelling and in 2000 by André van Duren, the latter based on a Peter van Gestel's adaptation of the story in children's book Mariken."

And during my translation chats with ChatGPT, during when I was "feeding" it context, it said, "It seems like you're summarizing the story of Mariken of Nieumeghen, a medieval Dutch morality play." It proceeded to list similar plot point, however, I believe this is one area specifically where ChatGPT was just completely wrong. The original play may have influenced the story, but our Mariken seems to be wildly its own affair, so far. But I am finding myself worried that our Mariken might end with her discovering the loving God and finding Jesus.

You're right about the name Mariken being a variation of Mary or Maria. I did hesitate to read too much about the play, as I didn't want to spoil my experience with the current Mariken story, in case it did directly inspire the main plot points.

Here is a short excerpt from the book describing both its first mention of Masscheroen and a brief scene that you also saw in the second episode:

Spoiler:

"Tomorrow," shouted the Devil after the flame disappeared, "we will play the game of Masscheroen, the advisor of the Devil."

He bowed.

"In that magnificent game, Masscheroen will ask dear God... yes, you will be able to look at God and his magnificent beard... whether he wants to send all people to hell."

The bystanders shouted indignantly.

"Don't get worked up," said the Devil, "everything will be fine. The Holy Virgin will put in a good word for you."

Some links I found where you can read a little about Masscheroen and Mariken Van Nieumeghen:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23980429 - The Devil in Dutch
https://www.jstor.org/stable/27708033 - Mary and Mariken with Masscheroen reference
https://occult-world.com/processus-sathane - interesting synopsis of the "play of Masscheroen", no spoilers, but helps make sense of the play/game the wagenspelers are performing
https://ww.sitm.info/history/Groningen/raftery.htm - The "incarnation" and modus operandi of the devil in Mariken van Nieumeghen - more in depth about the Van Nieumeghen story and the Masscheroen subplot. Potential spoilers, so I only read the beginning passages of the entitled section, a third of the way down the page.


The jaarmarkt, where Mariken finds herself in the city:
Spoiler:

jaarmarkt - year + market. Of course, fairs and markets are still held, and the term jaarmarkt is still being used. Specifically, these seemed to be annual fairs held in cities, often centered around commerce. I was keen to look up this simple word because we are led to believe that is what is going on when Mariken enters the city. From what I can tell in the wording from the movie dialogue, they says something like "Market Day". The book spells it out more clearly.

One of the resources I found was pdf that collected a bit of info about medieval jaarmarkten that was written records of when they were held and in which cities.


satorskop, satansteef, wagenspelers, scharminkel:
Spoiler:

satorkop - satyr + head - "Saterkop" translates to "Satyr's head" in English. Referencing the woodland creatures/minor deities of Greek mythology who were known for their wild and mischievous behavior. You know the type, upper body of a man, lower body of a goat, plus horns and pointed ears. So when the Black Widow accuses Mariken of having a "saterkop," she is possibly suggesting that Mariken has a mischievous or devilish appearance (in the book, she definitely had a wild appearance spooks common folk), and says that she is bringing trouble or bad luck. In this passage in the book, she accuses Mariken of being a wild "night creature", who got lost in her yard because it is daytime. :lol: The first few transcriptions wrote "zaterkop", a "sour head". Apparently, this one of the words the author may have coined or dredged up, as it seemed to be used seldom.

satansteef - satan's + bitch - this word does seem to get some slightly more common use and will give you some fairly dark internet search results. The Black Widow unabashedly says she believes Mariken's own mother must have been a devil's woman, implying Mairken herself is a devil-child or a witch-child. I am unsure just how vulgar teef is. I remember deliberating a lot on how to represent the words in English.

wagenspelers - "wagon players". We might say travelling performers/players/actors, who travel from place to place and stage plays and performances. What a great team for Mariken to get involved with. I loved how the devil became her friend.

scharminkel - is a colloquial term used to describe someone who is thin or scrawny. Someone who appears frail or slight in stature. Skinny or insignificant figure. Johanne describes how her father had perceived her, unimportant. I also had to consider who to interpret this one in English. I don't think her father was specifically referring to her figure, but rather how insignificant he considered her, from all his deep-seated anger at her. I might think of changing it to "runt" or "weakling" something.


Impressions of a Russian voice over:
Spoiler:

Considering Whisper would have had to tune out all other dialogue and focus on Russian, it did incredibly well. Perhaps this is similar to the effect that the youtube auto-transcription engine is capable of. For film dialogue, pretty iffy at best, but when it's just a youtuber speaking directly into the mic and reading their essay, it does pretty good (minus punctuation). The VOs also often feature a slight muting of original dialogue when they are speaking over. And as you are likely already aware, the VOs are clear and loud!

Though this has been my only time transcribing a voice over, my impressions may not be consistent with voice overs in general.

So, the voice overs are surprisingly brief and frequently drop dialogue that isn't necessary to carry over main meaning. I suppose this should not come as a surprise to me, and I imagine it would be good to speak as briefly as possible during the movie. Otherwise, I imagine one would have to continually speak over dialogue-heavy moments without any breaks. Also, idiomatic expressions often seem to be avoided. This isn't to say that everything that is dropped is unnecessary, as some nuances and lines are just not used.

I am having trouble remembering the best examples, especially those with whole dropped lines, but here are a few (includes a few minor lines from episode 3):

My book doesn't talk about the Black Death.
In Humanity is a Farce, there is nothing about the Black Death.

Mother left me in the enchanted forest. Wrote “look after Marikina” on my clothes and that’s it. (Russian)
My mother left me near the Phantom Forest. She had written something on my jacket. "Care for Mariken," it said.

The God you speak of did not give me children. (Russian)
That good Good, about whom you all whine all the time, has not given any children.

What about mothers who bear children?
Think of the mothers, who give birth in pain and sorrow.

Don't you dare talk about mother's love.
How dare you speak of motherly love in my presence?

I rubbed my feet, but they were always cold.
No matter how hard I rubbed my foot cloths together, they never got warm. I always had cold feet.

Looked at me and said that he would like to exchange me for his son.
He glared at me, shouted that I was scrawny, and that he wanted to trade me for a son.


It's been very helpful in determining some intended meaning.


Here's a fun part of the book. You've watched the series past this part, so it won't spoil anything. It describes Mariken's first impressions after entering the city after hopping off Gijs's cart. In the film, she wanders briefly before encountering the money exchanging man. Here, she wanders some more.
Spoiler:

Chapter 8

Wherein Mariken sees the Devil and the Hellfire and gets into trouble with citizens and townswomen dressed in black.


Within the city walls, Mariken jumped off the wagon.

"Watch out, girl," Gijs called after her. "Tomorrow is the Market Festival, you know. It's crawling with pickpockets already. Trust no one."

"I'm going to buy a bear," Mariken shouted.

"A bear?" Gijs yelled.

"A bear is strong. I'll take the bear to the Black Widow. And I'll say, 'Take Rattejan's ankle chain off, give me the goat, or the bear will eat you.'"

"You better watch out," Gijs said, "that the bear doesn't eat you."

"Do you have any ducats for me?"

Gijs laughed and gently kicked the mule's hindquarters.

"To the inn we go," he said.

Slowly, the mule pulled Gijs's wagon through the sandy street.

Mariken looked around.

"I'm in a forest of people," she thought.

The men, women, and children were countless. They walked past her, closed in around her, or bumped into her.

There were strange noises.

"For the first time in my life, I see people move," Mariken thought.

The people spoke or shouted.

That was the strange noise.

Mariken felt dizzy from the red, purple, green, yellow, and blue clothes. The Phantom Forest with its dull brown trees and soft green leaves was very far away.

Mariken stumbled over a piglet.

The angry grunting was the weirdest sound she had ever heard.

She got lost among the geese.

The geese pecked at her, angrily flapped their wings, and squawked excitedly.

She jumped aside for fat cows, sucked in her stomach, and pressed her back against a house.

The cows strolled indifferently past her.

She saw the swaying cow butts and the dirty tails with a tassel hanging from them. She saw that the fattest cow dropped steaming dung onto the sand of the street.

She quickly turned into another street.

It was quieter here.

A woman carried a basket with bread sticking out. She came straight toward Mariken.

"I'm hungry," Mariken thought.

She pointed to the basket.

"Bread," she said.

The woman stopped.

"Can I smell the bread?" Mariken asked.

The woman pulled out a loaf from the basket.

"Freshly baked bread," she said. "Two ducats."

"I've never smelled bread before," Mariken said.

The woman looked at her strangely.

"I can't read and I can't write," Mariken said quickly.

She blushed from lying.

"I'm as dumb as a chick and I want to learn from you."

"Reading and writing," said the woman, "my dear child, what are you talking about?"

Mariken stood on tiptoe. She smelled the bread. Immediately, she got a strong push from the woman. Before she knew it, she was sitting on the gray sand.
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by Night457 »   0 likes

pillowbaker wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:37 pm Honestly, I held off a little on the writeup since I wasn't sure if there was interest.
That is why I gave you a poke. *I* am definitely interested! If you happen to post an extended write-up before I watch the episode with your subtitles, I just hold off on reading the post.

I have not gone on to read all your links about "Mariken van Neiumeghen" yet, but...
Spoiler:

Our Mariken encounters the players with one of them portraying the Devil. Is this play within our film the adaptation of "Mariken van Neiumeghen"? I don't think those few minutes count as our Mariken story being an adaptation of it!

I'll have to read your links when I have more time.
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by pillowbaker »   0 likes

No rush at all, Night. Please take your time. :D

Yeah, I can see how it can be confusing. I could have clarified more in my writeup about Masscheroen/Mariken Van Nieumeghen.

"Masscheroen" is the title of a poetic drama that is performed by wagenspelers WITHIN the original medieval play Mariken Van Nieumeghen (let's call it MVN). So it is often referred to as a play-within-a-play. Mariken (MVN) supposedly witnesses the play at certain point in the MVN story. This sub-play sounds quite entertaining, oddly enough. It is a mock-trial drama about the devil and his advocate, who is called Masscheroen, and who pursue their case in a Heavenly Tribunal "court". The claim is that the devil was unjustly deprived of his hold on mankind, since their sins were forgiven, and he is worried he was robbed of his right to tempt mankind into sin. You should check out the "occult-world" link, which summarizes the play. It's funny reading Masscheroen's key points, and seeing him have to argue them again the defendant and judge, whose roles are played by Mary and Jesus.

So the play of Masscheroen is sub-play contained within the main play of MVN. However! Masscheroen, the sub-play, itself is a pastiche that was lifted from Processus Sathanae, an even older text, dating between the 12 and 14th century, which is also a "Devil’s advocate drama in which a representative of Satan appeals to God for his right to lead humanity astray." It is possible that Mariken (new) was refercing THAT, rather than MVN.

To answer your question, the wagenspelers and their friendly devil are not adapting MVN in their performance, but rather a specific part of MVN called the play/game of Masscheroen. It is also possible that there are some plot elements from MVN that influenced Mariken (new). As far as I can tell, though, Mariken is not a child version of the Mariken from MVN, and so far all the characters are very different. But, I also admit, I did not want to dig into too much of the MVN plot yet, just in case of potential spoilers.
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by Night457 »   0 likes

I have seen OUR Mariken, albeit without subtitles, so I have no problem reading about a medieval play I will never see with no fear of spoilers because I remember how our Mariken ends. (Sort of.) My doubts were based only on what little I read about MVN, and I just have not gone on to read more. I should wait until OUR Mariken is "done" just so that it is fresh in my mind. Then I can read about the OLDER Mariken and say "nope, nope, maybe, yeah sorta, nope".

But the play within the play they have in common, got it!
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by pillowbaker »   3 likes

English subtitles for episode 3 complete


It's late for me, so I'll get straight to point here. Hope you enjoy.


Mariken (2000).S01E03.[HEVC.aliptes].en.srt


Lots of dialogue in this episode. For some reason, the transcriptions turned out very smooth and, although I used nearly all my usual resources to double check every line, I didn't really need them except for a few places.



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