[REL] Mariken (2000)

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Night457
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by Night457 »   0 likes

popdrome wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:41 amI could have easily done without the boring literature and the many annoying lectures I sat through believe you me.
I don't want to dogpile all over those who ARE interested in linguistics, but I have to agree with popdrome here! In my uni linguistics I remember stacks and stacks of hundreds of photocopied pages every class session that I would have to try and read through at night, and then struggle to stay awake during the early morning lingu lectures. I am shocked that some of the theory has actually stuck with me, because it seemed incomprehensible to me then.

For several years after I saved the handouts in a very full paper grocery store bag so I would have something to read as a cure for insomnia.

The prof however, SHE was terrific! And, um, rather young. I recall one amusing incident where I believe she was discussing head voice, and demonstrated it by imitating the breathy speaking style of Marilyn Monroe. Embarrassed, she immediately turned beet-red and declared "I will NEVER do that again!" This just made everyone laugh more, and endeared her to me. I have to respect a teacher willing to appear foolish even once. I tried harder to pay attention in class after that! Because of my RESPECT, yeah. :oops:

Back on topic:
I really liked Mariken, thanks! I get the impression, however, that it could easily have gone on for more episodes. Is that just wishful thinking on my part, or does the original book continue the storyline further than the movie/series?
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by pillowbaker »   2 likes

Guess what.

I have made subs for the first episode of Mariken!

Mariken is one of the movies (or so I thought it was movie) that intrigued me a couple years ago, and through my enjoyment of many other coming-of-age and childhood-focused adventure tales, it became one of the movies that led me here to FLM.

For those that just want to get to the point, here they are!

Mariken (2000).S01E01.[HEVC.aliptes].en.srt

Synced and created from popdrome's upscale of the series, shared here.
Episode 2 in the works.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


[Image]

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Some details of my adventure with these subs, and other stuff for nerds.

popdrome wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:35 am Yes the translation is so difficult because it contains Nether-dutch, Limburgish, Antwerp-dutch, and brabantish, which are all dutch / english forms but very hard to translate.
...
The biggest challenge in this project is actually, trying to understand what is said on screen! Some characters in this series don't just speak dutch, but like I explained, either an older version of it, or a dialect. (Unlike the very extensive variations and long-life of English), Some of these languages are long dead!
Nether-dutch? Wouldn't that be like Nether-Netherland language? Brabantish? How could this be done?

Well, the answer is, RESOURCES. I smothered myself in them and even got a little dazed from it all. It was great. I had a lot of fun doing this. My resources included:

- basic whisper transcription of original first episode (via SE)
- secondary whisper transcription using the v3 whisper CPP model (via SE)
- third transcription of problem areas, cut with LosslessCut and uploaded to freesub.ai (for some reason, freesub can help with tough areas and does well with timings)
- fourth transcription of the same areas using whisper again (via SE)
- fifth transcription of movie version with German dub - Hmmm, can dubs be used to assist? If so, the value of a dub that exists for a movie with no subtitles could be great. And IT DOES work!
- ... if that's the case, can those pesky Russian voice-overs be used? Surely, having audio from two languages being played will disrupt a whisper transcription too much, right? As a proof of concept, I used the Russian VO for the Mariken movie version. And IT WORKED well, incredibly well! Sixth whisper transcription using this source was referenced.
- think we're done? seventh reference, the original Mariken book, translated with help from Mr. ChatGPT, who I chatted with extensively. He is pretty friendly. The ChatGPT translation may be better than what DeepL can do, though many passages come out nearly the same. I referenced the passages of the book that corresponded to their respected scenes, which actually lined up closely.


All transcriptions and the book laid out in notepad docs, all spread across the screen. Cross referencing them all at the same time became dizzying and often led to me getting easily distracted. But it was so much fun. Mariken was more enjoyable than I was expecting, so I wanted this to be my best work. I went all out in making this into the best sounding English I could muster.

For those areas that used archaic or dialectic language, well they had to be interpreted by both the German dubbers and the Russian VO guy, and I was able to use those in close examination of the best original Dutch transcription as I could create with whisper. And many lines were lifted right out of the children's novel, sometimes with slight modification. These all assisted in figuring out these difficult passages.

The part that I worked on the MOST and combed over and over, was the song played during the credits, sung by the main girl Laurien Van den Broeck herself. It is quite a cute little ditty that references Mariken's observations and the ideas of understanding and interpreting knowledge. The song required just as much cross referencing between all my whisper transcriptions, it was almost painful in parts, trying to line up the lyrics one line at the time to seek out differences. Some slight differences in sound, like "ieat" vs "niet", made great differences in meaning.

The song is fairly simplistically written and plain in vocabulary, so it translated pretty directly, that is, once I had the proper lyrics set straight. However, like many song lyrics, they maintain a rhythm, consistent syllable length in cadence with the beat of the song, and a rhyming scheme. Hmmm, could I translate DIRECTLY while maintaining some of these song characteristics? What a challenge! I hope you enjoy the work I put into it (ChatGPT assisted with some ideas for vocab and phrasing). Direct translation was kept and I added no extra splashes to get a loose rhythm and rhyme.


I will post more on the experience tomorrow. I want to touch on some details I've noticed on Russian VOs,
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by DreamScape »   0 likes

Welcome to the whisper club, pillowbaker! Amazing work!
pillowbaker wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 5:10 am fifth transcription of movie version with German dub - Hmmm, can dubs be used to assist? If so, the value of a dub that exists for a movie with no subtitles could be great. And IT DOES work!
I would say absolutely. Just be aware that sometimes there are slight differences like localizing the names of things for German speakers. Also, I am not sure if those Russian voice overs are from professionals or not.
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by Night457 »   0 likes

I am dumbfounded and delighted, this is amazingly good news! I have been wanting to watch this again ... but with subtitles.
All transcriptions and the book laid out in notepad docs, all spread across the screen.
Your description of all the different versions you used made me wonder, just how big is your monitor? 48 inch? :lol: The last time I did a serious translation I had three references, which is nothing compared to what YOU did. And my monitor was only large enough to effectively compare one source with the working translation being edited, so I would have to switch to another tab to compare a different translation. I was trying to imagine the mere physical layout of your workspace and was boggled. Of course mentally keeping them all straight is the real accomplishment and something I know I could not do. Fantastic work! Thank you!
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by kast1j »   0 likes

pillowbaker wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 5:10 am Guess what.

I have made subs for the first episode of Mariken!
Spoiler:

Mariken is one of the movies (or so I thought it was movie) that intrigued me a couple years ago, and through my enjoyment of many other coming-of-age and childhood-focused adventure tales, it became one of the movies that led me here to FLM.

For those that just want to get to the point, here they are!


Mariken (2000).S01E01.[HEVC.aliptes].en.srt


Synced and created from popdrome's upscale of the series, shared here.
Episode 2 in the works.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


[Image]

[Image]

[Image]

[Image]

[Image]

[Image]


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Some details of my adventure with these subs, and other stuff for nerds.

popdrome wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:35 am Yes the translation is so difficult because it contains Nether-dutch, Limburgish, Antwerp-dutch, and brabantish, which are all dutch / english forms but very hard to translate.
...
The biggest challenge in this project is actually, trying to understand what is said on screen! Some characters in this series don't just speak dutch, but like I explained, either an older version of it, or a dialect. (Unlike the very extensive variations and long-life of English), Some of these languages are long dead!
Nether-dutch? Wouldn't that be like Nether-Netherland language? Brabantish? How could this be done?

Well, the answer is, RESOURCES. I smothered myself in them and even got a little dazed from it all. It was great. I had a lot of fun doing this. My resources included:

- basic whisper transcription of original first episode (via SE)
- secondary whisper transcription using the v3 whisper CPP model (via SE)
- third transcription of problem areas, cut with LosslessCut and uploaded to freesub.ai (for some reason, freesub can help with tough areas and does well with timings)
- fourth transcription of the same areas using whisper again (via SE)
- fifth transcription of movie version with German dub - Hmmm, can dubs be used to assist? If so, the value of a dub that exists for a movie with no subtitles could be great. And IT DOES work!
- ... if that's the case, can those pesky Russian voice-overs be used? Surely, having audio from two languages being played will disrupt a whisper transcription too much, right? As a proof of concept, I used the Russian VO for the Mariken movie version. And IT WORKED well, incredibly well! Sixth whisper transcription using this source was referenced.
- think we're done? seventh reference, the original Mariken book, translated with help from Mr. ChatGPT, who I chatted with extensively. He is pretty friendly. The ChatGPT translation may be better than what DeepL can do, though many passages come out nearly the same. I referenced the passages of the book that corresponded to their respected scenes, which actually lined up closely.


All transcriptions and the book laid out in notepad docs, all spread across the screen. Cross referencing them all at the same time became dizzying and often led to me getting easily distracted. But it was so much fun. Mariken was more enjoyable than I was expecting, so I wanted this to be my best work. I went all out in making this into the best sounding English I could muster.

For those areas that used archaic or dialectic language, well they had to be interpreted by both the German dubbers and the Russian VO guy, and I was able to use those in close examination of the best original Dutch transcription as I could create with whisper. And many lines were lifted right out of the children's novel, sometimes with slight modification. These all assisted in figuring out these difficult passages.

The part that I worked on the MOST and combed over and over, was the song played during the credits, sung by the main girl Laurien Van den Broeck herself. It is quite a cute little ditty that references Mariken's observations and the ideas of understanding and interpreting knowledge. The song required just as much cross referencing between all my whisper transcriptions, it was almost painful in parts, trying to line up the lyrics one line at the time to seek out differences. Some slight differences in sound, like "ieat" vs "niet", made great differences in meaning.

The song is fairly simplistically written and plain in vocabulary, so it translated pretty directly, that is, once I had the proper lyrics set straight. However, like many song lyrics, they maintain a rhythm, consistent syllable length in cadence with the beat of the song, and a rhyming scheme. Hmmm, could I translate DIRECTLY while maintaining some of these song characteristics? What a challenge! I hope you enjoy the work I put into it (ChatGPT assisted with some ideas for vocab and phrasing). Direct translation was kept and I added no extra splashes to get a loose rhythm and rhyme.


I will post more on the experience tomorrow. I want to touch on some details I've noticed on Russian VOs,
Thank you, I look forward to the rest of your subs.
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by ghost »   10 likes

Thanks, pillowbaker!

Yes, you really put a lot of work into it. I know how frustrating it is, when Whisper gives you just nonsense in some parts. I also try to use different methods, if the 1. transcription is disappointing. Often I cut out a scene from a video and do it again and again, until the transcription gives me logical result.

Did I mention that I upscaled the German dubbed movie some time ago?

Maybe someone wants it:
Like this post to see ed2k links  [2.09 Gb]
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by pillowbaker »   1 likes

ghost wrote: Did I mention that I upscaled the German dubbed movie some time ago?
Lol, actually downloaded it recently while scavenging for Mariken stuff. The quality of your upscale is great. Makes me wish we had full DVDs available of the series. I am sourcing to a couple people over emule right now.

DreamScape wrote:Welcome to the whisper club, pillowbaker! Amazing work!
...
I would say absolutely. Just be aware that sometimes there are slight differences like localizing the names of things for German speakers. Also, I am not sure if those Russian voice overs are from professionals or not.
Yeah, you're quite right. I didn't really have to think about that too much while working with this particular series so far. Magister Aesculaap had a few variations, but that changed on a few of the transcriptions. I went with the names in the credits where possible, and used the book for reference.

Your observation is quite correct for place-names as well. The forest where Mariken resides in is called Waanwoud in both the book and movie. According to bab.la, context reverso, deepL, chatgpt, this carries the basic meaning of "delusion forest", or forest of delusion, but can carry connotations of a forest or woodland characterized by an aura of illusion, delusion, or mystery, and possibly evokes imagery of unreality but also of enchantment. The German dub calls it Zauberwald, which reflects this idea in a bit of a lighter tone.

The Russian VO called it очарованного леса, which deepL puts as The Enchanted Forest (and offers spellbound or enthralling at alternatives). This gave me a bit of leeway to use my imagination for a good version in English, as Delusion Forest doesn't have a good ring to it. Since Waanwoud had some internal alliteration to it, I figured I could aim for something like that. Hope you like what I came up with, although I can't say I coined the name, as it first made its appearance (as far I know) in Final Fantasy 3/6.

There were a number of other variations between the original and dub and VO, which offered an insight into how these words and phrases get translated when some imaginative and poetic license are required.

Night457 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 8:27 am I am dumbfounded and delighted, this is amazingly good news! I have been wanting to watch this again ... but with subtitles.
Your description of all the different versions you used made me wonder, just how big is your monitor? 48 inch? :lol:
Oh no, my TV isn't even that big! :mrgreen: My monitor is only 24" (61cm). It's not even 4k. I'd say that's average for a desktop PC now. I took a screenshot midway through one day.

[Image]

As far as mentally keeping them straight. HA! Don't give me too much credit. Too many times, I'd get disoriented from figuring out which transcription was which, and what lines I was searching for throughout all of them, and sometimes I just somehow ended up on youtube listening to music. I am glad I eventually managed it, since I there was a couple of whispered (as in hushed, not the program) lines I was only able to ascertain through a couple of those random transcriptions (using whisper program).
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by Night457 »   0 likes

I was very interested in your discussion of different possible translations of "Waanwoud" but irritated that you did not just come out and say your final choice! I have not had the chance to watch it yet, not even to find the hard drive the video is on. I looked in the subtitle file to see if a quick search would reveal your choice. I guess I will just have to wait until I watch the video.

Of course a 4k monitor is not needed for text editing. I know someone who uses THREE 24" monitors for his (paid) work. (And no, it is not video editing: it is all text.) That gives plenty of desktop real estate but I have to wonder if he gets a sore neck from craning back and forth. Your screenshot looks like there are NINE Notepad instances on it, wow! Keeping track of which was which would surely be difficult. Incidentally, I noticed with my new-ish Windows 11 that new instances of Notepad open in new TABS rather than new WINDOWS like it used to be, and I have not researched yet how to force them in separate windows when desired. If I ever do another subtitle translation then I will surely have to know how.

P.S.: you should be able to listen to music while you work, rather than letting it draw you away! If you choose music without lyrics then it should not interfere with your concentration on the words in the subtitle files. Using different parts of the brain and all that stuff, ya know.

P.P.S.: HEY!!!!! I logged out of FLM and after a few minutes I realized that your screenshot was NOT in "dark mode". I thought your preference was for light text on a black background? Or is that just not possible with Notepad?
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by pillowbaker »   1 likes

Night457 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:11 am I was very interested in your discussion of different possible translations of "Waanwoud" but irritated that you did not just come out and say your final choice! I have not had the chance to watch it yet, not even to find the hard drive the video is on. I looked in the subtitle file to see if a quick search would reveal your choice. I guess I will just have to wait until I watch the video.
Yeah, sorry about that! But I did put it in one of the screenshots! ;)

Spoiler:

[Image]

I had to give it an extra couple syllables, but I like how it turned out. I had a few other options that might have worked in keeping the name more simple, like it is in Dutch. Since the Dutch "woud" and English "wood" are derived from the same root word and can be used in much the same way (as in, attached to other other words), I had considered Feywood and Grimwood and maybe a few others that I wasn't as confident about.

I tried to hold back on pointing out some of my favorite lines for when one gets to finally watch it. No rush, take your time, and maybe I'll have another episode done before one gets the chance. :D


P.S.: you should be able to listen to music while you work, rather than letting it draw you away! If you choose music without lyrics then it should not interfere with your concentration on the words in the subtitle files. Using different parts of the brain and all that stuff, ya know.
If it was just text editing, that would be fine. But I was also constantly inserting and modifying dialogue and testing it out in the video player in SE to see how it looked and felt, and if it needed tweaks in the synch. However, I love using instrumental music for BGM during much of my computer time.

P.P.S.: HEY!!!!! I logged out of FLM and after a few minutes I realized that your screenshot was NOT in "dark mode". I thought your preference was for light text on a black background? Or is that just not possible with Notepad?
OMG is there a dark mode in vanilla notepad now? I am still on windows 10. I m looking into this right away!
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Re: [REL] Mariken (2000)

Post by Night457 »   1 likes

Doh! I did not think to look back at your previous post, and apparently I only "read" 2/3 of the screenshots. I noticed I was getting too many juicy spoilers, so I just glanced over the rest of the pictures!

Notepad:
Spoiler:

I dunno if there IS a dark Notepad, I just figured you would use it if there was. Maybe if the Windows Theme is set to dark it would automatically include Notepad, that's what I figured. I have everything set to Bright As The Sun, so I would not know.

I was hoping you could clue me into Notepad with multiple windows in 11, but I guess not. Damn, I hate researching how to fix the crap that Windows messes up!

EDIT:
I did this in 11:
Notepad/Edit/Font/App Theme/Dark

And/or, read this if that does not work in 10: https://www.makeuseof.com/windows-notepad-dark-mode/

And for ME,
Notepad/File/New Window
<or>
CTRL+SHIFT+N

Sheesh, that was too easy.'
UPDATE, LATER --

BRILLIANT!!!! I did not bother to add "Mariken" to my ever-growing list of FLM titles to rewatch; I simply made it the next thing watched after I transferred the subtitle over to that drive. IT - IS - SOOOOOO - GOOD!!! The subtitles are great and really contribute to my enjoyment. It is really rather funny. Mariken must have had an eccentric upbringing, because she has a bonkers view of the world. Now, don't take this as PRESSURE but rather as ENCOURAGEMENT: I am totally ready for "next week's episode"! Take your time and enjoy the research involved in completing your subtitle.

At the beginning of this rewatch, I came to the shocking realization that I had actually seen both Laurien Van den Broeck (Mariken) and Jan Decleir (Archibald) in another movie, not quite together. De zaak Alzheimer (2003) Their relationship in Mariken is gentle and sweet, but in the other he plays a contract killer tasked with eliminating her. Sadly, her screentime in it is too short for FLM. Still, one of my very favorites in the Sympathetic Hitman subgenre. Plot Spoiler:
Spoiler:

When he sees how young she is, he is utterly appalled and refuses to carry out the hit. Someone else does it instead. He then proceeds to hunt down all those responsible. This is made difficult because his memory is increasingly impaired with Alzheimer's disease. This is actually NOT a ripoff of "Memento" because the novel predates that movie by a number of years.
Some time ago you said you were translating the novel with DeepL, and for this project you translated it with ChatGPT. Do you have EITHER translation in sharable form? I honestly don't know if I will ever go back to reading books, but this is definitely one that interests me. I have your Dutch .epub file but have not figured out yet how to open it.
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